Chaitali,

Thank you for a beautiful post! and doubly so, because the Gitagovinda is a personal favourite and even today touches me to the core with its melody and inimitable sringar rasa, bhakti bhava. Barbara Stoller Miller's translation is the best, since it captures the essence of the original so beautifully.

My association with this most sensuous of poems and emotions, imagery, depicting the Play of Love, goes back to early years when I started learning Odissi music and dance, and through several years thereafter. Odissi,(both dance & music) as you know, emerged from the Jagannath Temple, and in the beginning, young boys dressed as girls (gotipua) performed it in the temples, until about a 100 years ago, when women started performing and reciting in the temples.

In classical Odissi dance and music, The Gitagovinda is an integral part of the process - both as an offering (maharis dance and sing the gitagovinda even today, alone, no one is allowed that time of night, in front of Jagannath, every night after the day's activities are done)and as a creative form.

Made me smile, with memories of how I learnt it and how my guru made me internalize it, and how much I loved the process.. I was humming the songs again as I read, thank you for reminding me of the beauty of Leela and the power..

love

Dear Chaitali

Firstly thank you for the excerpts from that wonderfully sensuous and rich poem.

You've really encapsulated it all quite well. The human mind is indeed a scary thing because we are capable of even distorting that which is most obvious.

I was really surprised to hear the other day that ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness) actually advocates celibacy!! I mean how further from the truth can you be. And these are people who are advocating Krishna's path!! Made me shudder.

Dear Sukanya,

I'm glad the post brought back memories and thank you for the information on the Orissi dance. I have watched Orissi performances and I find it one of the most graceful and soft dances of India.

Actually many dances are based on the Leela of Radha-Krishna. Manipuri dance for instance and I think even Bharatnatyam has sequences on Krishna. Bhanushingher Padabali which is also based on Radha-Krishna is sung and danced on in Bengal.I f I'm not mistaken I think even the dandiya dance of Gujarat is the dance between Radh, Krishna and the Gopis.

Anusheh that is strange because as far as I have heard ISKCON allows its members to marry and have children.

Oops sorry. I meant 'Odissi' dance and not 'orissi'.

hmm!

Interesting post! ; - )

much love, Rohit

Chaitali

I thought I should visit the ISKCON site and see for myself. Celibacy is advocated for single devotees since sex outside of marriage is not considered to be right, this stands for monks who are unmarried as well. Also interestingly enough monks who are married and monks who are not have different dress codes. Now why would you do that unless you are discriminating between them.

Sex is considered to be natural by them but only for procreation........there's much more said and unsaid but I'll leave that for you to investigate:-)

Dear anusheh,
As far as i know iskcon dictates 4 things1)Abstinence from intoxication2)Abstinence from illicit sex3)Mantra chanting4)Forsaking non vegetarian food.Actually the system Is very scientific,at the onset people have to leave many things,after which the disposition becomes normal and pure through rounds of mantra chanting.

Good Morning everyone!

Hi Sayan! Long time since we've read from you.

Anusheh yes I think I'll investigate this a little more. I'm quite intrigued by this.

Dear Sayan

I dont think abstinence of any kind is normal. You can learn to transcend things but to abstain from them means that you still carry those desires within you but just supress them..which ultimately has to mean that they will come out in some other distorted way.

Also I dont quite understand the concept of 'illicit sex', Krishna is more famous for his love affair with Radha than with his relationship with Rukmini. I guess ISKCON would then have to call the relationship between Radha and Krishna illicit as well.

Whereas mantra chanting is a tool for purification, it is not a magic wand by which all desires disappear.

Dear Anusheh,
I never quite undestood,that you have not understood the importance of abstinence.I feel some type of abstemious behaviour is called for in order to achieve something noble.You can say that man is the greatest creation,and human beings dont need any control,but yet maybe 5% of the total human population uses his brain for something noble.and yes chaitali i was busy in academics and my computer wasnot working.

Sayan,

Abstinence doesnt work for most people. You try it. The next time you really desire something tell yourself that you cant have it and see how miserable you will be and how often your mind will focus only on that object. Abstinence is an unnatural state. Of course you need to have some order in your life to achieve something noble but what does discipline, courage, faith and perseverance have to do with abstinence?

There is a famous zen story of two monks crossing a stream and a woman asked them for help. The older monk offered to help her across on his back. The younger monk was furious. He got really angry because for him it was sacriligious to even think of a woman let alone touch her. When they had crossed the stream and walked for quite a while he finally couldnt take it anymore and turned to the older monk and said how could you do that, you have broken your vows etc. etc. The older monk looked at him and said, I let that woman off my back on the other side of the stream but it seems to me that you are still carrying her. The young monk was shocked into silence. This my dear friend is the difference between abstinence and transcendence.

Just wanted to add Sayan that abstinence is actually a symptom of duality. One thinks of abstinence when one is still looking at the world in terms of sacred and profane, good and bad, right and wrong. Transcendence on the other hand is the natural result of unity consciousness.

This is very beutifully written article. I am great lover of Bhakti movement and Krishna Radha are the greatest deieties of love, unity and poetry. Thank you for a reminder of the purity of GitaGovindam.

Dear anusheh,
Actually you speak like a person from the tantrik school of thought,very strong in yur convictions.Anyway coming back to your letter tell me in western countries why is sex abuse so rampant inspite of being such a open society.Actually i have pondered a lot over these,i can understand abuses in your country or mine where it is represed but in foreign countries perversions are the most.Maybe you have to ponder a bit about your convictions.

Dear Chaitali,

I havent read the gitagovindam till now but after reading your post went through it in the internet.

I came across a statement by a certain Sir John Woodroffe... " He appears separately to each of the innumerable groups of innumerable herdswomen, though He is Himself one without a second; proficient in the amorous acts of women and yet free of all sensuality; a youth victorious in war with passion, and yet immersed in the midst of waves of passion; restless and mad in His play as Brahman, though incarnated by way of play as a man; making Himself out to be adulterous to His own wives in order to delude unhappy Jivas devoid of Sadhana...."

The sentiments echoed are somewhat similar to what I feel about Krishna and the depiction of the Rasalila.

I feel there is a supersensuous symbol hidden deep in the meaning of the rasa dance. Man through ages has interpreted the rasa dance and the love of Radha and Krishna by his own understanding...we must not forget Jayadeva lived in the 12th century...nearly 4000 years after Krishna...so his depiction and understanding of the dance per se in Gitagovindam mirrors his understanding.

I have a very different opinion of the rasa dance. I categorize the rasa components into four stages.

The first stage : the stage of the people who dont know about the dance at all. It symbolises people unmindful of the divine engaged in their daily activities.

The second stage : The stage of the people who watch the dance and want to be a part of it. This is the stage of the sadhakas.

The third stage: the stage of the gopikas taking part in the dance with Krishna. This is a very very important stage. Here the devotee lost in the beauty of Krishna ( Divine ) tries to commune with him through the most delicate love known to the devotee...passion and sensuality.

In a certain Harry Potter movie there is a mirror...it shows what the person standing in front of the Mirror desires to see the most....wants the most...the mirror shows many images but is beyond the images and is untouched by it....here too in the rasa dance...Sri Krishna is the mirror....he mirrors the feeling of sensuality and passion dsiplayed in the love of the gopika for him but in true sense beyond it.

The devotee through projection learns to refine his love and attains the final fourth stage...the stage of Radha.

It is like what Anusheh says...neither abstinence, nor indulgence....but Transcendance.

Radha is never jealous, never opined. She represents the fourth stage of the dance. She is the epitome of love and oneness.

in the fourth stage...the devotee becomes a Mirror...he reflects Krishna...radha is krishna, krishna is radha...absolute oneness.

lots of love :)

Sayan I really dont see how the two are related or what connection you're trying to make. Openess in a society does not necessarily mean a resolved sexuality so dont confuse the two. Besides just because you are not entirely exposed to the kinds of perversions which exist in our countries dont assume that the west is more perverted.

Dear Anusheh,
I honestly dont know much about what you have told,all i am trying to say is abstemation if it is self inflicted and within limits helps yu to channelise yur actions and behaviour.You have mentioned about radha krishnas aspect that is actually more about the coupling about the Dynamic,active part of earths persionality with the passive intituitive realms of it.It should not be taken allegorically.I can understand your grievance towards abstemation,because of its innate hippocritic nature,but some degree of it is needed,For optimal performane in any field.In world cup football i remember some of the countries like Chezchoslovakia,Japan etc they banned their players from meeting their Girl/Boyfriends.Innumerable examples can be cited from olympics in this regard.So yu cannot negate the effect of abstemation.Yu are absolutely right when yu say abstemation which is forced or for a certain period,is absolutely disastrous.I know yu are quite knowledgable,and extremely strong person but a little bit hot tempered i suppose from what i can gather.Take care my friend bye.

Sayan in that case perhaps discipline is a better word to use than abstinence.

Here's something you might enjoy on discipline, it is said by a zen master during the time of the Ming Dynasty;

A sage said: “In learning, you increase daily; for the Way, you decrease daily.” This “decrease” means decreasing excess to attain centered balance, decreasing trivialities to return to basics, and reducing human desires to return to celestial design.

There may be a hundred human desires, but it is imperative to master oneself first. Mastering your self is like overcoming an enemy; first you must know where the enemy is before you can send in your troups.

Self-government is a matter of getting rid of what was originally not in us. Conscious development is a matter of preserving what is originally in us.

The human mind is very lively; the spirit should be peaceful. Its nature should be developed in accordance with its potential, not allowing heedlessness, or forcefulness, or interruption. There are the minimum requirements for what could be called guidelines for developing the mind.

Dear anusheh,
Thanks for the sayings of the zen master.If yu go and care to think a little bit deep about the aspect of discipline yu will find very less difference between the two.Any abstemation which is of a specific time period,and controlled for some purpose becomes somewhat disciplined in nature.

there is a time for everything, in one's individual life, in the lives of families, communities, countries, cultures, cultural ages...we interpret things as if they are static, but they are always in cyclical flow...a child may need to obey his father and thus abstain from many things, so may he need to do in his youth, but eventually he will become father himself and need not do so. similarly we grow from childhood to 'fatherhood' in terms of our evolution towards individuation, towards masterhood (may be in many earthly lives) and must do things the way we like them. a master may be abstaining even while apparently indulging in something and indulging even while apparently abstaining...a master's ways are known only to a master...

Dear Aachi my soul, forgot to add, yours was a superb peace of writing...

Hi Aachi!

Excellent depiction of the rasa dance. All I'm trying to say is that Krishna and his relationship with Radha and the gopis is symbolic of the significance and power of the sexual energy to transcend one who is involved as well as one who is witnessing the dance to the state of blissful consciousness where as you have stated comes the feeling of absolute oneness. For Radha and the gopis their oneness with Krishna and for the viewers of this dance oneness with all Krishna, Radha and the gopis who are all involved in the leela. Hence the viewer also becomes a part of the leela if he/she allows their sexual/sensuous energy to rise within them.

Dear Chaitali,

I understand what you mean and agree with it absolutlely. the sexual energy in us is what determines the level of spirituality we can attain. and raising it through contemplation and longing for the Divine offers us the portal to transcend.

Dear Harb,

thanks a lot. :)

lots of love.

I will continue to visit enjoyed the reading thanks

If we follow our senses without restriction we end up more and more entangled in the material world which only leads to more suffering, birth, death, old age and disease. Following the senses is the complete opposite of following a spiritual path back to God. It leads us only to misery. Sex in the material world is very gross. It is gross in the sense that it focuses on the body and its senses only.
The gross interactions of the material entangled soul should never, ever be compared to that of Krishna and the Gopis. Everything here, is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world. The Gopi´s interactions with Krishna are completely spiritual, their only motive is to please Him. He is our ever well wisher,our dear most friend. He is who all sacrifices should be performed for. There is nothing egocentric about Their interactions, it is all good, all transcendental, nothing at all like the interactions here in this world.

The true meaning of chastity, is devotion to God and his devotees. You can not say the Gopis or Krishna are unchaste. You can not compare their act ivies to the illicit activities in this world. This would be very sad indeed!

Dear Rachel

In my opinion it is a little problematic to see the spiritual as outside of the material because when we do that we create duality. If everthing is truly one and emanates from the divine source then the material too is a form of the spiritual, is it not?

Warm regards

Hi Rachel,

How can following the senses be the complete opposite of following the spiritual. The gopis were following their senses which was their love for Krishna the divine. Krishna too was following his senses by giving himself to the gopis. It is this enmashing of the senses, the sensual, the human and the divine that makes what is spiritual. It is the sensulaity between Radha and Krishna that is highlighted in Radha-Krishna's worship.

Who is Krishna? He is the sensuous, the bliss and the joy of our senses.

Dear Readers,
A person should only heed his senses when his will is attuned with his guru or spiritual master.Otherwise with the consciousness that we possess right now we will be and are besotted with our desires which in turn rise from our ego.This actions spurring out of that can never be good.

Dear Chaitali and Anusheh,

Lord Krishna manifests three main energies. His internal energy, His external energy and His marginal energy. Or the spiritual energy, the material energy and the jivas, or the individual spirit souls, (us). When, we, the living entity, although transcendental to material nature, thinks of ourselves as material product and tries to enjoy with this mentality, then we experience duality.
The material senses, which only aim at satisfying the self and the body, only binds us more and more in this material world, where we experience duality. "Spiritual" is aiming to please Krishna. Such service is not material, it is transcendental and in its purest stage, takes us up to the level of the residents of Vrndavana in the spiritual world where there is no trace of material activity. This is how it is the opposite. This is why there is duality in this world, unlike the spiritual world.

Yes, the Gopi´s love for Krsna is topmost. They, like all the residents in Goloka Vrndavana, are completely transcendental, without material contamination. Unlike us they do not have material senses, false ego, and mind. Their only desire is please Krishna, instead of pleasing "myself".

We can never compare the activities of Krsna and His pure devotees to those of the material world. We cannot say, oh the gopis, they are unfaithful, have affairs and engage in sexual activity, so will i!! I too will enjoy in this same way, i will please myself and fulfil my own selfish desires. See the difference? The gopis are the most chaste as their whole being is focused at only pleasing God, while ours is to please who? This misconception will only leads us in the wrong direction.

So, Srimati Radharani and Lord Krishna´s senses are not material, unlike ours in our present condition, in the material world. Here, we are identify with the material body . Our senses chase after the urges of this body, instead of aiming at pleasing Krishna. If we learn to control the senses and mind, by use of intelligence and purify our hearts by association with Krishna, (that is hearing, serving, glorifying Him and his devotees), we will come to love Him. At this stage we use only our spiritual senses and have a spiritual form which is blissful, eternal and full of knowledge. Naturally, at this stage, we are not at all attracted to the gross sensual activities of this world that only lead to suffering.

I hope this helps.

Dear rachel.
Thanks for the informative post.

i still have not fully figured it out... the only standposts for me are my own life.
I am somewhat of a deep bhakta...moast my life has been that of intense feeling and closeness to the divine...an almost intuitive understanding and sieving thru the mess and mire of rituals and such...i used to feel pure and divinely bathed in this feel and that carried me thru most of my tough childhood.
during my adoloscent days, when my sexuality was awakening (not that as a child we are asexual, there are still some "sexual" needs...touch, eating, gratification...sexuality as an extension later is the desire for physical union and also emotional spiritual...so i say awakening) i created a shadow that partitioned this spiritual side and the sexual side...they peacefully co0existed. I never desired higher spiritual power but knew somehow it would happen, and my sexual side of course was exploring its own self..not much aware that it was somewhere affecting my spiritual quest-eclipsing it...meaning not directly...but by sort of increasing guilt (aa when i started to grow older, the lack of control on my need to physically gratify seemed to make me think i was a looser, with no "self-control" which only lead to more internal divisions betw spiritual self and sexual self)
then i was introduced to life force, and the chakra system where i soon found out that the life force is actually the raw sexual energy, located in the plevic region and is an essential part of self. this brought some intense relief and integration and somewhat of an increased permission to express (atleast internally) any sexual erotic desires...but again, not fully.
there were still questions...about appropriate sexual expression, orientation, etc etc..which were further aggravated by the lack of proper gurus and writings, and perspectives on these areas, most of which gurujis of the modern age rarely elucidate upon...they say dont repress, then say control but never dwell so it can be understood and healed...to top it all, there's a school of thought that sneers at men loosing their control and letting go (even the agora and tantric systems with the maitra rituals heavily dose the importance of not succumbing to be able to harness sexual and turn it or sublimate it to spiritual)
I dont get it, either one sexually expresses and adequately moves on to the higher energies...but then to do that one needs to go thru this phaze right? i mean, if i want to be a saint or a sadhu and accumulate spiritual power and then also get spiritual highs from eroticism and when with my partner...it feels pure and spiritual but also conflicted....because this voice that says that saintliness within me is being voilated and i am falling from where i am...so where does that leave me?
what do i trust anymore?
i have, to avoid the conflict, lost this trust and intuitiveness that i spoke of, initially as a child, because i feel this releases me of responsibility...to make a choice thats new...thats not approved...
yes, all incoherent, but mythology and the gods and their erratic sexual behaviour have seemd to offer solace in the past, make me more human and accept the humanness...but somehow thats also waning...the voices of dissent seem louder and i am falling down, further and further...

Dear Seeker

Just from my limited understanding....The conflict is an age old one, between the sacred and the profane. Even though you seem to intellectually understand that sexual energy is an expression of the spirit somewhere you are not able to integrate this truth into your being and be at ease with the sexual.

You say:

"they say dont repress, then say control but never dwell so it can be understood and healed."

The sexual energy is healing by and of itself. It is not something to be healed because it is not sick/unwell in the first place. They do tell you to not repress sexual energy but they dont tell you to control it, infact they tell you to transmute it into its highest potential which is unity consciousness. Any school which is telling you to control sexual energy is based on duality and notions of sin/virtue, sacred/profane.

You say:
..to top it all, there's a school of thought that sneers at men loosing their control and letting go (even the agora and tantric systems with the maitra rituals heavily dose the importance of not succumbing to be able to harness sexual and turn it or sublimate it to spiritual)

There are many ways of accessing the divine. As many paths as there are seekers. Tantra asks you to tranform the sexual especially the orgasm into an inner implosion that can connect you to an experience of universal consciousness. That is its ultimate goal. However in order to enable this it first says you have to embrace the sexual as a divine and beautiful potential and move through it, fulfilling your desires and needs, but with respect and dignity for the other because you understand the sexual to be a doorway to the divine and therefore your partner as nothing less than a god or godess.

You say:
"I dont get it, either one sexually expresses and adequately moves on to the higher energies...but then to do that one needs to go thru this phaze right? "

You're absolutely right. The journey is made up of different phases and as long as we have a sense of movement and are being able to see each phase for what it is - just a step towards the light. An experience/state trying to pull the canvas of our being wider. We should be a-okay.

Hope this helps.