Maya, what a great piece. What you said to her rings of honesty and powerful simplicity. It's the eternal truth; return to the self for all resolution. Since that's where boredom, confusion, chaos etc. get born then solutions to them have to lie there too. She's lucky to have you as a friend.

Good to see you on the blog today. Hope the year is a joyous one for you.
love
Anusheh

Dear maya,

I have heard some of my older friends who have been married for long saying that they are bored and that they would like to have an extra-marital affair to spice up their life. Is it wrong for them to think so?

nice post...integrity spaces and getting back to ourselves to address issues rather than make symptomatic changes externally...

MG

Clapping for you dear. Succint, articulate, simple and whole.

Well Said!

Hey Maya,

Happy New Year! Great post!

I have a question here. Has this woman ever expressed her dissatisfaction in the relationship to her husband? I have had my share of relationships and I see communication as a very crucial aspect, especially in a marriage.

Thanks J, A and all the rest for the love.. x
Sohini, thats a good question and one I hear often from friends and its crossed my mind too - what to do when the boredom sets in? The only answer that makes sense to me is that the boredom crops up with anything - a job, a relationship, a friendship - when it doesnt match up to your expectations, when you want it to be the source of happiness, comfort, security etc....rather than making yourself and your own achievements/work/self to be the source.
And we want that fever pitch of excitement and romance maintained all the time. Now thats really unrealistic isnt it. So then we want a change, we want the other person to become a performing moneky and do some new trick to perk us up. Even with our jobs we never look at what we can do to make it more exciting...
Of course we also get used to habit and familiarity and comfort... but we rarely look at ourselves as the source of the boredom. I think its more realistic to expect that relationships go thru ups and downs - sexually and emotionally. But why should the frequency of hot sex be the barometer of a relationship? Why cant it be the depth of the intimacy? Why cant it be the uniqueness of the friendship? Do we ever look to develop other aspects of a relationship?
The learning for me over the last four years (almost) of the relationship I'm in is that sometimes its more important to give the other (and yourself) space to feel and be other things. We describe our relationship as "being alone together." The closeness and intimacy is always there, but sometimes its more intellectual, its about shared work/projects, its friendship, sometimes its great sex. The shared space doesnt have to be the defining thing for you. Most importantly, both of us are in agreement about space for the self.
When I hear married friends talk about boredom I end up saying that the problem may not be 'boredom', may be stagnation or a lack of creativity inside your own self. And a great fondness for unrealistic ideas about marriage!
Sorry this has gone on so long, but its a pet topic with me... Cheers y'all

Dear Maya,

But I have a question. I have read in so many places that one of the keys and perhaps the most important one to a happy marriage is good sex . Is that so? I'm asking this question because when my friends talk about havin xtra-marital affairs they also say that they othewise love their husbands and that they give each other space etc.

Where have you read that sex is the most important key to a happy marriage? What is "good" sex as compared to "bad" sex? I think what all these articles try to say is that both partners in any relationship - and not just marriage - need communication about sex - verbal and non verbal communication...and what is sex? Just a part of a larger whole called sexuality - as you can see from this blog! i think people need to make their own rules about what works in their relationship rather than follow prescribed steps set out in magazines. I know some very happy couples who have not had sex in months - but the relationship is far more committed and deep than others who have sex three times a night every night. There can be no rules or prescriptions -- is my only rule!
Of course there are many people who are comfortable with an open relationship where partners can pursue different relationships. thats a slightly different situation but implies that there is a great level of comfort between the two people. and an understanding of their own needs.

to add my 2 bits...would help to ask ourselves whether happiness is a quality of the activity by itself or a quality manifest in the interactors...who bring in the aesthetics and sensitivity to shared space...whatever the activity may be...

I think in many instances people bore of each other not b/c of bored sex at home; or the need to fulfill primal urges; but, more to "feel" the feeling they get when emotionally aroused by the essence of new love.

So is it really emotional fulfillment she needs, or physical, I wonder?

Maya, I loved how you unfolded the story!

North

Thanks North...
I totally agree on needing the 'high' that new love brings. we are quite attached to that notion and want that feeling all the time i guess. and i think the sexual connection when love blossoms is usually heady and intense as well.....'a drug' was the word someone used to describe sex to me at the age of 16...this particular person needs emotional fulfillment I think because thats how she talked about her lover primarily...the sex is a bonus..

Shuboshree, I just re-read your post...I think there comes a time when people stop talking to each other about things that matter. Maybe they never did? I dont know. I try to imagine sometimes what people I know are like in their private moments... I think she and her husband have a quiet domesticity, they are buddies but not soul-mates or lovers anymore. I dont think she wants to try with him either. Communication is one thing, but it has to be a vibrant living part of the relationship that exists beyond words. Its hard to resurrect it once a crisis hits. Crises happen because there is no/poor communication

Well Maya,

I will have to say it is not either or. Until the sexual is part of one's need/desire then an intimate space is all about creating that high/fulfillment/completion. Otherwise why call it intimate at all. All else is intellectual deflection only because the desire is being replaced. And in the realm of the sexual, 'replacement' cannot work for long. It is a great surge of bio-chemic and spirit waves pushing us to know the 'peak' over and over again in the hope basically that man will understand the nature of the 'peak'. Orgasm is a compulsive sexual hook for mankind caught in ever growing circles of obsessive replay, only because he/she never stops to wonder why the compulsion has been placed in their being in the first place. Bad/good/violent/indifferent sexuality is then our doorway to know why our physical peak is always wanting. And then, the few who tire and look beyond discover what the mystery is truly about.

Before that, the sexual is therefore a spontaneous and OVERWHELMING need precisely for that reason. Men largely choose it indiscriminately because their emotional quotients are suppressed so they go round in circles trying to resolve it at the physical level. Women with convoluted and ballistic emotional needs tie themsleves and all who they desire and meet in Gordian knots because they are expecting a far greater universe from sexual union. In a nutsehll all are chasing their own tail.

However when we (modern idiomatic people) start giving ourselves for whatever reasons language of -independent spaces, freedom to do our own thing, focus on other aspects of the relationship etc etc the vacum stays, yawns into huger chasms and inevitably spills into grandiose dissonance within and without. We have to accept some fundamentals about our sexuality. Only because for the longest time the sexual is a need (very real both emotionally and physically) to experience heights. It is only the few who have reached the realm of self-completion and in fact transformed the sexual into their spiritual height that the need to seek ecstacy through another really ends. But please know these are indeed the 'few' of the few. For even in the spiritual heirarchy many have sought their height through suppression and then that surfaces and torpedoes them in big , bad ways at some other stage of their ascendence. Osho perhaps said it the most clearly and radically. The sexual must be known and experienced first hand- lived-out and then only in its wake does the transfromation happen. Note transformation -not just transcendence (for then that is an intellectual/spiritual deflection)

Thanks Maya for the insight. Talking of the missing "high" in a relationship, I believe that the definition of "high" keeps changing as the relationship evolves with time. Initially the crazy passionate sex, candle-light dinners, the adrenaline rush that one feels at the mere sight of the beloved ........ are all perfectly natural. (Not that one cant enjoy all those things after marriage also). But, later there can be different, more subtle and fine things that can make your senses tingle. The very journey of living together can be the biggest adventure in their lives, if they look at it that way! I think the so called 'Boredom' sets in when people get stuck in the past and are not open to growing with the relationship. Its all a matter of attitude.

I also want to add

There is a final stage as Harb mentioned somewhere that you rise as Master of your being. At that stage all is a play and the sexual a wonderous dance, without power, need, fear, insecurity, moral guilt, compulsion or an obsession. Just the dance as it is truly meant to be between hearts, bodies and being. I guess the Shiva/Shakti dance of Kumarsambhav is precisely a celebration of this kind of dance.

Shubz

The boredom I think does not set in just because you are stuck in the past but because you are no longer complementing each other. Different needs, focus, rates of growth et al lead to distance. One could start working at consonance all over agin consciously if over all the person and love is strong and means a lot. But I have a feeling few manage to do that if they are also not working consciously within and taking a lot of responsibilty of completing their own circle. Otherwise as North has also said the 'newness' outside begins to pull you as an indicator that you have to move to newer heights within you. Sadly, few understand the connection and get caught in cycles of affairs and guilt.

I think really the challenge is that how do two people ensure that they can grow individually and live in consonance and complementarity. It is a tough one and that is why 'spritually'(in the technical/scientific sense and not morally speaking) marriage seems such an untenable institution.

Dear Jasjit,

Thanks for putting things into perspective. I agree - growing individually and living in consonance and complimentarity - is the key.

jasjit,

btw how come so much space is left between your previous post and signature...

it seems to me in it is written what can only be best conveyed through silence.

or perhaps...some words are not written only spoken...at the spur of the moment...

LOL Harb

Or I have left the space unfilled for much remains unsaid and perhaps someone else will say it instead.

jasjit,

or...or...or...or...like creating our own world on basic blankness...on what Greek called Plenum...

in fact i actually first wrote that have you left this blank space for me to fill?? but then deleted i forgot now why...

perhaps you also deleted something...i know sometime things get we actually to not intend or are not sure of....in fact writing comes in the realm of intellect while what we are trying to convey comes in the realm of intelligence...which really is conveyed either by spontaneous speech or by gurbaani like poetry or finally silence..

This has been a real great discussion. I guess we are so worked up in trying to look for orgasm from sex that we forget to look for the orgasm that we can get from other aspects of a relationship. Thanks Maya, North, Jasjit and shubhosree for sharing your thoughts.

Hello Sohini, Jasjit, Harb and Maya, et al,

Just to add, that a successful marriage needs lots of care and work to be able to go through the continual changes of both the husband and wife.

I was married 15 years, alone for 15 now. I think my marriage failed on many grounds.

First, it was love at first site, and sexually charged. WE never did develope a deep friendship. We never could "talk" about life, love, fears. My ex just didn't want "talk." lol

Needless to say; after 15 years, I became quite unhappy, in every respect. the only thing really that was satisfying after many years of not having my heart, mind and Spirit stroked; was he was a fantastic, satisfying lover. He was spontaneous and fun.

None of that was enough; when we hit a crisis in 1990; both of our backs went kaplooie. hmm, no wonder, huh? lol

Just pointing out my experience, to show that even the best sex, without some form of spiritual or mutual ground; will fall to the same failure as a marriage with no sex.

Today, my ex is the best long-distance Dad I know of; very attentive to our son. It's funny, but we talk more about life and things than in our 15 year marriage. so, in essence, it took our break-up to achieve friendship! weird! lol

I do miss being married; fussing over a man with meals and laundering, etc. I loved being a wife. I love being a mother. I never longed, or desired for anything more than that from life.

Alas, it was not to BE. Now, I've been alone so long; I've become a typical loner of love, stagnant in relationships with friends, too busy volunteering to fill the gaps.

what to do with me? lol

North

enjoyed the sharings here..very insightful, all...tx.

Dear North

So, so many woman who are alone face this central dilemma of needing to love, nurture and give and finding no one there. It so often makes them bitter, head compulsively into toxic realtionships and carry some serious low-self-esteem. I wonder if the dilemma comes from a gender memory that the feminine carries (through generations for it afflicts modern women too despite such a radical change in their thresholds of life choices) where a primary, fulfilling feminine life needs to be at the centre of intense nurturing and sustaining. For in the absence of that I have seen so many multi-talented women crumble and slowly lose sight of all the other facets of their being which can be fulfilling and uplifting.

I think at the subtlest level the gender memory also translates women's true power coming from being at the centre of nurturance (especially of husbands, sons,lovers etc)and this unstated power formula is perhaps handed down through generations. Modern women who end up in single situations feel the loss of that power ( do not see the subtle level) and hence the ache/bitterness becomes self-consuming. There is an inherent devaluing in that which corrodes incessantly at their self-esteem and nothing else seems to quite put it right. Not even the myriad substitutions of dogs/cats, neighbours, caring for others etc etc that they then try and substitute it for.

I wonder if it just simply means that the feminine is pretty stuck in feeling that its primary validation comes from being the centre of someone's emotional universe. That is their true POWER! For all needs come from fear and all fear covets power.

Would love to know what other's think?

gender memory..what a beautiful word you have used , jasjit.i do feel gender definitions are also a manifest of separatedness in conditioned spaces...as also "association" manifests in those spaces...it is definitely possible others know more , but from where i operate this moment, i see no reason for aspects of freedom,liberation and love to be gender specific at certain plains of manifest....the physical body, in itself is a creation of thought...a wonderful aspect of creation...
"all needs come from fear and fear covets power"...lovely words..the desire to control...a very key manifest of fear...

i know there is simple science behind this feeling of inadequacy in the third phase of their lives. it is according to my book and it involves the same difference i talked about in an other thread. in fact in the light of that it even came to my mind how Anusheh and jasjit will feel in this phase if they are single...because no amount of self knowledge can counter that science...as jasjit hersef put it even multi-talented women crumble in this phase....and accoring to my understanding this phase lies between 40 to 60 and beyond it things will again to look okay that is if other factors such as the availability of security, shelter etc are okay...

i shall write about it more later...

Harb are you implying that nurturing is only possible in a marriage or amongst lovers?

harb, since you use the word science, I would love to know how you perceive science...to me, science and technlogy as w eknow it today is based on the first two postulates of mathematics, the definition of zero, which is widely credited to a mystical experience aryabhata had....in that sense it is like poetry..we never q, challenge or even take into consideration this fundamental definition....it is just a given in our lives....as also the emergences from it..so also organic chemistry having its roots in kekule's dream....possibly there may be more....
we try to authenticate spirituality through science, but can it really be done?
whenever u feel the incline , if you do, would like you to share your perspectives on this....
anyone else, too...but not at the expense of this post of jasjit..i look fwd to shares in this space...tx...

anusheh,

to me it is not really about nurturing though this is also true but about standing leaned on one's own 'shoulder.' and according to the same science you will feel it less...

as for nurturing alone...one can nurture others even like mother teressa..

sunder,

my science is rather philosophy of science...i see what is happenind in a atom, molecule, proverbial grain of sand happening t all greater system levels including us humans and i see what is happening to man and woman in this light..it has nothing to do with spiritualit...or alternatively, spirituality applies to all cience too down up to the atom...i am now to attend to an important work so will write a little later..

Harb I guess I didnt understand what you were asking. Could you explain then please...sorry a little fuzzy headed today:-)

Harb

Sorry do not know what phase you refer to as the 3rd phase. So please explain.

Also as I look forward to reading your insights into the difference of the feminine and masculine on the Way I would like to add something I have observed. With respect to all Masters I have read etc unfortunately male Masters(unless initiated by a female Master) have a very limited understanding of the feminine. Its always surprised me and then in contemplation I have understood why.

The stream called feminine consciousness in its pure bi-polar flow(untarnished by social gendering) carries the Yin key of intuition, creativity, compassion and a critical deliverance at one of the last stages (o.k this is the first time I am articulating this publicly so its going to get a bit long!) this is the stage of the Bodhisattva self which comes after the Buddha stage i.e when the unified being turns to flowing as Compassion for the manifest world.

This, is as opposed to the countless many who after their own 'Oneness' go into silence and withdraw. Not surprisngly all the pictures (naturally drawn from imagination) of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus etc represent such androgynous looking men who in fact look more feminine than anything else. The collective imagination has manifest them as feminine because that is what mankind yearns for in a Master and that is also truly what they become. Because at the Bodhisattva stage, the Compassion and nurturing is flowing as the highest, most pristine Yin element possible in the Universe. This is also the only form in which ultimate/Unified Cosmic consciousness can be contained in manifest form-in the flow of the Yin/Ida principle.

This stage happens when the Unified being transcends to the seventh or Sahasrayar i.e complete transformation of the mind into autonomous mind. And then returns to the heart chakra to connect to the world through compassion. This is a CHOICE, and is subject also to the uniqueness of how each chooses to flower. Now the autonomous mind rests in the realm of the heart and manifests as pure/pristine love. Those who reach the seventh and choose not to return to the heart (J.k Krishnamurti strikes as one such and there are many others) but rest at that consciousness realm only, do not opt for the Bodhisattva stage.

As the Bodhisattva, the masculine is in completely the SHIVA form, silent and complete in containing the resonant, transforming, compassionate, creative and effervescent feminine (Shakti) within to act as the encasing for her play. In its kernel Ardhnareeswaran refers to this.

The interesting thing is that in body the man/woman as seekers carry some unique bio-chemic as well as conditioned streams, which makes each stage fairly different in their ascencion.

However most male Masters observe the female gender per se in a limited way because (and I think this is a radical point) in their own memory of struggling with inner conflicts (perhaps largely of nurturing and accessing their heart and of course the ubiquituous male ego) they have eulogized the feminine to be this all loving, ready for Bhakti being. In fact the feminine in the illusory state is deeply twisted. The games/manipulations that make up the subterranean levels of women require a kind of cleansing/purification/healing which is quite intense and awesome.

It came to me as such a shock too when I started placing clients in spiritual practices. Once the ego of men was 'handled' they became relatively transparent and open to observing their blocks and addressing them. Women were so intrinsically complex/convoluted that it nearly threw me into a whole new spiritual crisis on how to understand it. That is when I realized why even Masters like Osho, who eulogized female sanyasins as being more capable of Bhakti and surrendering the ego, ended up with such betrayal at the hands of his core female group at Oregon.

This is actually a whole area of understanding which I hope to pen in detail someday which has also helped me understand why fewer women Masters were evident in comparison to men. The cleansing of the feminine self that women must achieve is indeed phenomenal before their Yin can rise as the Bodhisattva. For men they just need to open the doors of their feminine once their masculine has been purified. They do not carry through gender memory and conditioning a twisted/manipulative/victim feminine psyche.

And of course it is true that the deeper the darkness the more resplendent the dawn. well when a female Master rises, it is also true that her light is unique and rare. In the same line of thought it has never surprised me that Boddhidharma was initiated by a female Master. For it is her subtlety which in transmission turned him to gift the world with the most subtle wisdom that exists-Zen.

Hmmm hope this is not too confusing and intense! Never thought this would be a forum to share such insights. But then again we are defining the sexual here and what would it be without its intrinsic male female halves.

Thanks all, for the posts on this thread. I've been absorbing all that is being expressed here since Maya wrote the first post.

I have very little knowledge of Masters, texts and practices, the philosophies et al. But because of my life experiences, and the key role models that have influenced my environment, I have been a keen observer of how life eddies and whirls around me, in the contexts of relationships, sexuality, intimate spaces and how they interact, my own spaces as a woman, a daughter, a sibling, a friend, a mentor and a professional. Somewhere, it feels as if it all connects to one integral whole that is "self" and the larger picture or vision that the "self" connects to.

Allow me to explain.

For some time now, there is a part of me that moves out, detaches itself and observes. When I witness my "self" this is what I've seen...

Two intense passionate relationships, the chemistry so potent that the shared intimacy always transcended to a level where it actually made me feel that sex is the most beautiful manifestation of the union of separate selves, and that oneness permeated into other aspects of the self and manifested in many myriad forms. In the initial stages there was yearning, and holding on to it..but some where along the way it started to manifest, it happened - no effort was needed, it happened, and that made it so much more special. At that point, all else fell away. I was able to relegate the abuse, violence of 12 years to just what is was - the outcome of substance abuse, alchohol, drugs, the manifests of a tortured soul.. The abuse and violence never deterred me, never affected the fundamental equality, dignity, the complete honesty and bonding between us. It still holds true, our friendship holds good even today, that connect still works. That intimacy helped me to stay brave and strong so that I could enable my love to find his feet, while I worked on mine.

We walked away from each other - by choice, a very conscious, mutual choice, fully comprehending the consequences of that choice,not only for the two of us, but also for the people whom it would affect; having done a very honest analysis of our strengths and weaknesses, and where we wanted to go, who we wanted to become. Therefore, we walked away only towards finding ourselves. Looking back, I think I had it easier because I didn't have the same burden of guilt, and there always was the constant challenge of completing my studies, becoming independent emotionally and financially, of surviving. That helped, and the experiences didnt scar me; the pain helped me understand more.

Of course, I played the entire gender role play; immersed in nurturing, nourishing, giving. The same with the second person. Until a point when i felt I had nothing left of me to give to anyone any more; where I wanted only to nurture and nourish myself, where I would lean only on my own shoulder first and foremost. Both intimacies gave me completion and fulfillment, and thereafter I haven't felt the need to go out looking for it. I didnt feel like clinging on to them because some where I had myself to be with.

Pre-arranged destiny - last evening I met up with friends out of the blue, after a gap of almost 8 years. Two young men and and a young woman just approaching their 30's. All three single parents today, all three scorched by break-ups that were bitter and hard, on their physicality and their souls. All 3 in and out of relationships today that are totally only about sex, one night stands, no emotional connect, no harmony, and the angst and anguish was so evident. We started talking about where we had come and how. About chasing relationships, attractions, responses, about the urge of physicality, how our sexual selves always manage to drive our priorities and who we were. We were up the whole night into the wee hours of this morning.

And all the while, my thoughts have been - why so? Such beautiful young minds, creative, sensitive, with so much to do and contribute. It hurts to see them like this. Our sexual selves are just as much as as our hungry (for food) and thirsty (for water) selves. Is it only that aspect of the human consciousness, of the psyche that drives all else, and if it doesn't work the way we percieve or want or expect, or are contioned to, it must degenerate into such bitterness, resentment, guilt and pain?

I was able to find out for myself, what works for me - both my sexuality and my connect from there to the larger picture. I haven't crumbled yet, i would love to have a man in my life again, it would be enchanting to be in a intimate share space, but I am not out there chasing after it, trying to find it, willing it to happen - I am "just being" and waiting, if it has to happen it will. I don't miss it or crave for it. I haven't crumbled yet, but the questions and the social trends worry me
what is happening to people around me pains me to the core and I wish i could find ways of healing and cleansing that might be of help.

Will continue to read your amazing posts and insights, and maybe find some answers.

jasjit, as you show it, it is visible...thanks for a very insightful share...maybe in the age of aquarius, female masters will manifest and take their rightful places....and maybe a certain Jasjit we know will also ascend to those spaces...

sukanya,you seem an incredibly blessed human...not many are able to see events in their lives as opportunities for their evolution and move on...people kind of get stagnated in the throes of their pain and spend a lifetime complaining about either the people or the events for their miseries...i feel our crosses are custom-designed for us, in accordance with the learnings we have chosen to take back...it is like a divine conspiracy at play.....

jasjit,

wonderful all-encompassing post. write a book on it and it will become a hit.

i have forgotten all my science, anyway, i will try to say something now in general terms..

i divide each wheel of the wheels-within-wheels of the game of life at all levels into four phases (reason you will know from my book). same is the case in the wheel of our individual lives and its four phases are childhood, youth, middle age and old age. same is the case of our cultural cycles, local as well as global. (I find our AD era global cultural cycle divided similarly into three phases of Middle Ages, The Age of Romanticism and the Age of Reason...and we are now in the process of entering the four phase.)

on the first and last phases there is not much difference between the males and females and so they both may be called what you said androgenous.

masters who arose in the first phases of any of the small or big cultural phases would behave like what you called as initiated by the female masters. and indeed they may well be as would normal beings in their childhood phase 'initiated' by their mothers. they may even cry like "maa maa" because of the similar reasons, like ramakrishna parmahansa.

masters of the second phases will behave more like females themselves and thinking themselves to be so, would sing songs in praise of God taking him their male swami or master...like guru nanak -aaj na suti kant sio ang mure mur jae..

here women will be at their peak and even men will be like women though more pronounded in the larger context like guru nanak as above.

anyway, masters of the third phase would be like those who you say will go silent...like ramana maharshi...

men in this phase will be at their peak while women will either become like men - which is what i mean to be standing on their own or leaned on their own shoulders and this could well happen to some extent because from the second phase the women have to go to the third phase, the phase of men and i sense our anusheh to be like this to some extent - or in the absence of this they will miss a manly 'shoulder' to lean upon in this phase.

anyway, masters in the fourth phase will be like your bodhisatvas...even normal men and women will find both their yin/yang parts almost in equal measure then.

because of wheels-within-wheels and so phases within phases the game in fact becomes quite confusing.

because of this masters of the third phase may yet not be able to keep silent, that is, they may yet be in the second phase of their overall third phase..they may yet have some 'love-making' to do as in the second phase of the youth, so they will venture out and in the process provide much-needed spiritual 'shoulder' to women of that phase or era.

but in the scheme of things since eventually he will have to move forth to be true to his basic third phase or eventually will have to come back unto himself to be one or to be complete, he will try to withdraw that shoulder some time and in the process will invite betrayal from those who would have by now become dependant on him, more so because, because of his need of fulfilling his own Yin he may well have used some of them in some way...(it is just like usual women will now not like a man to withdraw once he has developed relationship with her).

so this is my take...but really i dont think i need to say more given your already all-comprehensive understanding...only it is my way of describing that thing.

what we have been doing now as men and women has its seeds in what has been happening in the universe ever since big bang and has operated throughout our evolution since then, that is, from clay to minerals to plants to animals to homo sapiens and really we are wrong in describing it as if we had a choice in this...wait for my book....

thats a beautiful way of looking at things , harb...creation in all its aspects shows different sides of it to different people...makes it all the more fascinating....

jasjit, anusheh, sukanya,

sukanya,

the phase we are entering is the phase to become wholes. we cannot become wholes and yet related at the same time...so all relationships especially the constricting relationship of marriage has to come to an end...

jasjit, anusheh, you may not seem the feel the problem i am talking about as much as some women of the just passed era because though now you may be entering in your third phase, Age as a whole as i have written above to sukanya is entering the fourth phase...

Dear Harb

Sometimes I feel this book has become a whole karma of yours. So much of you seems to get pivoted there. Knowing that you will not misunderstand me, I have often wanted to say why do you refer so much to it. the wisdom it contains came from you, yes in continum and entirety it probably places a whole vision of yours in one form, but all the parts are within you as is the whole. You wait for it to be published, almost as if then the journey of Harb will truly begin for the world. Sorry but I cannot understand why.

The book if it must transform others will do so on its own, a part of you you have already shed, a river which has already flown through you. Published, well-received, bringing honours or otherwise will all be part of the river which was once within you and has gone elsewhere- to where it belongs. And the limelight it brings will not change who you are (perhaps just expand physical/material options). I am sorry if my words seem presumptuous but with a great humility I say that it seems to me that it is now a bane you carry. And then again that could just be my faulty perception.

You see I write a few dozen books in my head everyday. AS moments of insight overwhelm me a new book takes birth. Some I begin to pen and others I just leave at the level of a few scribbled lines, or shared words here or on Intent or in discussion with a colleague. Worse an entire completed work (my first rather lengthy and creative expression on the Way) is sitting with a literary agent whose response I still await. But once complete and the joy of seeing it look beautiful(it has some artistic images too)lasted as long as it took to mail away. In the first week of the wait I realized it had now travelled to its own realm of manifestation. It now is not mine since anyways the wisdom from which it took shape belongs to the source far beyond me. When its time is right and if it is needed by the collective desire of those that it is meant to serve all will come together.

Now I don't know why I wrote this here when I was meaning to address some other part of your post

Harb

Second what you said to Sukanya. The mind gives itself many reasons to feel it has transcended only because the heart is too fearful of facing the pain it witholds. And this is why the mind can be so manipulative when it has reached the stage of learning the language of healing. It works full time at blocking our own journey out of illusion.

I am not sure I clearly understand the phase theory still that you mention so I am going to pick out some points from your post Harb and just share my view point. While the cycles and phases theory you mention sounds very wholesome/scientific/unified (at least as much as I am able to understand) I have another view point to offer.

Ramakrishna for instance and Budddha being the two examples I am going to share. Buddha existed at a time far beyond his times and left for the world an icon of ascension whose real time (in the Yin/Yang potential of man's ascension) is coming now in the 21st century henceforth. Only because the Yang (mind) energy at the level of critical mass has reached a certain level of sophistication where the idea of man as his own peak (and not God) is ripe and ready for the largely scientific mind to gravitate to. External idols/religions/rituals are not desired anymore and the more complex inner journey is negotiatble since the mind has become sophisticated in the continum of the last 3000 years. So why did Buddha manifest when he did is the question and why not now.

Similarly Ramakrishna was unique in emptying himself completely to function as a manifestation of Kali (read as transforming Yin energy)in the rawest form possible, hence the trance and near comatose days he experienced continually. Unlettered he had not much wisdom to impart through words and used a powerful heart centre to trigger devotion in the hearts of his followers. He was handed Vivekananda to give him the immortalizing words/langauge/identity only so that his force would reverberate to those who needed language as a bridge. Kali is the powerful(rawest transformative energy) mystical element within the Yin substance and it was Ramakrsihna's gift to bring that element back to the modern mind, divorced of the confused ritualistic voodoo she had been subsumed into by quackish cults.

Now as I see it humanity will always exist in various (perhaps the four stages as you articulate them)states of consciousness at any given time. myriad (multiples actually) schools/icons/Masters/ are peppered to allow for the garden of spiritual ascension to be replete with every possible model to choose from. Karmic clusters that we bring at birth will gravitate and resonate with the ones best suited to our stage and level.

What do you think Harb?

jasjit,

you are teaching me much...

perhaps it is time for me to go silent a bit...

thanks for the lessons...

Hi all! I came to know about this site from my freind Sohini. She told me about this particular article and it really interested me. Maya I think you have answered to the queries really well. It was really very comprehendable and it made me ask myself a lot of questions about myself.

Sukanya its nice to hear that you still have a friendly relationship with your ex but I was really disturbed after reading what you had to say about your feelings when you were still in the abusive relationship. "The abuse and violence never deterred me, never affected the fundamental equality, dignity, the complete honesty and bonding between us."

Ok so the drugs led him to abuse you and so you do not blame him. Thats a very compassionate attitude. And you are a strong person to have stayed through the abuse.But its very difficult for me to digest how an abusive and violent partner not affect your dignity and how can there be intimacy in a violent relationship?

Harbji you are teaching us much as well so thank you for that:-)

love
Anusheh

Jasjit, Harb whats extra-marital affair got to do with Ramkrishna and Vivekanand and female master. Why are you guys trying to do hear, talk about sexuality, healing or about saints?

Dear Harb

As you yourself say we teach each other when we are receptive and open for all is just mirroring us and then it is truly deserving of being called satsang.

Hope to see you back soon from your silence to share your thoughts on my second post

Dear Raj

Welcome to the blog.Indeed you are right that saints, spiritual philosophy and extra-marital affairs all seem to be competing for attention on this post. Sorry if some of us have taken off on another tangent but then I guess this is a forum intended to allow space for all tangents possible. As long as it helps people connect to some question of relevance to them, all is welcome.

Annie,

I don't know if I can explain where I am coming from, but let me try. To me it was the manifestation of a tortured mind and soul, it was someone going through hell, who had no inner or outer resources to help cope with it and handle it.

Here was a wonderful, talented artist, a good sensitive honest human being, a decent & responsible caring person - unravelling into pieces of debris, in front of me, around me. It was someone I loved, someone I had committed to, fought the world tooth and nail to be with, given up all I had, just to build a life with him. I couldn't just sit there, watch, take it all, do nothing and blame my fate or people. My vows meant a lot to me - and i couldnt just walk away because he was getting worse, becoming a stranger, I couldn't ignore or be indifferent. The minute i realized that my husband would be able to find himself again, through help, counselling, treatment - that became my single point agenda, single point focus - i had to get him help and bring him back. It was clear to me that it would be very very tough, with no help from any quarter, yet inside me I knew I couldn't give up without making some effort. I chose to go by what my inner self said - that is to stay on and take whatever came my way until he healed, until he came back to being himself. At that point, that is what love meant to me - to be there, not just in good times, but in sickness, and bad times. So I did. Even then, well wishers and friends got disturbed because I was staying on in a situation where I could also have died. they were mortally afraid for me. But somehow, there was this tremendous faith I had that things had to change, he had to become the special person he always was, and I had to catalyse that. As the slow difficult process to recovery started, that was when the violence and abuse got worse, then there would be days of calm and harmony and suddenly the anger and violence would come back again. It took 7 years of single minded devotion & dedication, and that did work in the end. My goal, my purpose was achieved. He recovered completely and today lives a life that is leading him towards his fulfillment. There was no sexual intimacy through that time, it was the period of 5 years prior to that time when we had beauty and balance. Those 5 years made me stay on for the next difficult 7. I had to give back for all that I had recieved as gifts of the soul from him. My sense of self has always been very strong and I didn't feel any loss in my dignity as a woman, to stand by and be there for the man who had given me so much. In between the bouts, there was always the lucidity of communication, verbal and non verbal. Everyone had given up on him, friends, family, colleagues. I simply couldn't. Today I am so grateful I did not. Even in that awful time, we were able to be honest with each other. I didnt allow myself a moment of self pity nor of low self esteem. I said undeterred, because that's what I had to do, and it came from deep inside me. I am no messiah, or florence nightingale. I was a young girl with dreams, building my career, I don't know where that strength came from but my perspective was influenced by what I valued as my own, as well as the people around me. in spite of all the tongue wagging, the "aha bechari" stuff, it didn't affect me. I never felt small, or helpless or humiliated, or undone. It was quite clear and simple in my head - my dearest one was going through hell and no one else wanted to help him come out of it, and I couldnt sit there doing nothing. I poured over books, talked to counsellors, wrote to my teachers, spoke to doctors, learnt how to treat turkey, learnt to understand the signs of relapse and delirium, learnt how to attend to a sick person... i wasn't only a woman, wife or a lover, i'd become a care giver, a healer, a nurse. And that is how I crossed that bridge.

Wonder if it will make any sense to you at all, or to any one for that matter.

it makes a lot of sense to me, sukanya...

Hi Annie

Welcome to the blog. Hope to see more of you here.

Wanted to add that I grew immensely as a person during that time. my faith was tested, my feelings and emotions were tested, people thought i was insane, laughed at us both.. there was ostracism and inuenduo, but I still think I learnt so much. It was my first test too, of the profession I had chosen, the studies i had undertaken and it tested me there too.

There was pain and hurt, but there was always a bigger goal beckoning. Stumble, fall, get hit, or hurt, down and out - yet I had pick myself up, attend to my wounds try and heal them if i could, and pick myself up to face another moment, another circumstance, another day..

He recovered, healed, the i supported him to start studying again, helped him move back to a different life. As we walked towards finding ourselves for our own selves again, after that ordeal, only then I discovered i wanted to work on myself and i wanted a space of my own and so did he. We needed to and wanted to find our feet again in different spaces and see if we could survive that - we did. It was mutual, we were very young when we started - I was barely 17, he was 25, we took our separate ways much later when I was almost 30... we had grown up, through that time together. There was no angst, no recriminations, no bitterness, it was mutual - and I had no guilt, I had given my best.

Hi Annie, welcome and glad the post helped you along in some way.
Jasjit, your last few posts on ramakrishna and masc/fem were really lucid. very well written and answered some questions
x

Dear Sukanya

Commendable battle that you fought alone and on multiple fronts. But the painful truth remains with you that the one to whom you gave the greatest possible loyalty/nurturing/unconditional love and care is no longer in your life as the partner who grew to health and reciprocation for a love which seemed almost like a tapas.

The heart has to be crushed by the pain of this truth. Often those of us who carry a strong, creative and powerful mind are drawn to the great ideal of love. As I said in an earlier post, this is largely a feminine need intensified further by great inspiring ideals (as you were generously bestowed with in your growing years)it becomes even more acute. This search for a great love to consume all, is an indication of the power of your inner aspiration and passion. Not surprisngly, romance and love bceome the first threshold were we pour all and then because the karma(read destiny here) is far greater, the love proves toxic. Now the intense women, as you are, often start this soul-destroying battle with themselves to ascend to the needs of that man/situation and can place themselves at great peril(as you did) at almost suicidal levls of self-effacement, all under the ideal of their own wonderous aspirations. Naturally no other being (least of all a toxic one) can ever contain what a being like you has to offer.

Now comes the critical split. A crushed, lacerated heart whose only question is- why, as it rallies with its own anger/hurt/confusion and despair. And the mind which keeps pegging itself to the exalted ideal of love well served, beauty which existed nevertheless and the sacrifice at the altar of the 'ideal' of love.

This chasm dear Sukanya is scary and blocks healing. The heart must be allowed to cry/ache/rant at every hurt, slight and wrong it suffered. More importantly it must be allowed the DESPAIR of its near herculean effort to salvage a toxic reality. It must be comforted for how it was wasted and scarred and most importantly the mind must be debarred from crushing the TRUTH that the heart wants to speak.

Once emptied of its true pain, it will come together and flower to seek the height of its true potential. And that potential is indeed immense in you.

Just some thoughts

jasjit, you are the expert in these realms with youyr wealth of experience...please pardon my adding my 2 bits...sometimes, teachers drops off our lives after our learnings withem are through..newer teachers manifest...as we continue our journies in learning...if the learning that you mention is due to her. maybe it will manifest through another space where the crushing may get completed...sometimes, trimming the cocoon may not help the butterfly to take wings...i am sharing in all humility...maybe i am wrong...but this is the way i see it...

Thanks Jasjit,

Was wondering when I will hear from you!

Agree with you. Maybe that process began only a little while ago, of cleansing.. of going deep within... of digging out the anger, the hurt from behind the layers of mummifying facades and bandages one had put around it, of standing in front of that despair, face to face.

this resonates - "This chasm dear Sukanya is scary and blocks healing. The heart must be allowed to cry/ache/rant at every hurt, slight and wrong it suffered. More importantly it must be allowed the DESPAIR of its near herculean effort to salvage a toxic reality. It must be comforted for how it was wasted and scarred and most importantly the mind must be debarred from crushing the TRUTH that the heart wants to speak.

Once emptied of its true pain, it will come together and flower to seek the height of its true potential.."

thank you, it helps...

Sukanya

Glad to be of any help at all.

Love and hugs

Thanks Jasjit and Maya for the warm welcome.

Dear Sukanya I must confess I was very angry with what you had written earlier. But now as I read your response all that anger just went away. You have explained the feelings that you had at that moment so well. Love... it is a strange thing after all... and you have been true to it.

Jasjit when we fall in love we use our heart but when that love fails we use our mind and forget the heart where it had all started.

Love from the heart
Annie

how in Annie's innocent remark is hidden the truth of evolution of going through four phases!

Annie, love of our youth days fails precisely because we will eventually evolve from being an emotional being - a property of the second phase -to an intellectual or mental being - a property of the third phase.

jasjit,

evolution moves in cycles...just like a spiral staircase..and just as a landing comes after every flight of a spiral stairs case, similarly, a buddha, a krishna a laotze comes after every cycle of evolution.

a buddha came at the end of certain previous cycle. so did krishna and lao tze. so will come buddha's and others at the end of this present cycle which began with AD 0, and with far more detailed knowledge than them.

to give a like example. people (greek atomists) at the end of a previous cycle which ended with BC era discovered atom. Two thouands years down the line, that is, at the identical period of the present cycle which began with the end of BC era or beginning of AD era our science again discovered atom but with far more details..

thank you anusheh.

bless you all!

this space is precious, valuable - in sundar's words - "a sacred space".. these expressions, insights and words flood me with life force.

I should have expressed it, bared my vulnerabilties - never denied that i hurt! oh so much! raved, ranted, cut myself off even from my most personal spiritual connects, broke off from my divine, from practices that were so critical to me, threw away my rudrakhsha, gave up my jaap, closed mysef and did away with my creative self, my singing, my chandi path, my service at matarani's temple, my serving thakurji...went away from every source that connected to my spirit.

jasjit, how I have ached for comfort, for solace, for one kind gesture, one embrace that cared, one look that made me feel i belong somewhere.. that somemone in this huge world of billions cared one bit or loved me one ounce.. how i have craved yearned for one person, anyone, to manifest my divine and say yes child, i inderstand...days, nights, weeks months - one unending contnuum of pain, of oblivion, of shutting up and closing out... how i've ached for a caress, a hand on my head, a warm embrace, a look that said "it will be ok.. this too shall pass..."

Didnt find anyone, no solace, no comfort, no caress, no hug that said I was lovable inspite of all my flaws and all the scars.. I had only myself to turn to... somewhere on the way , i got back my connect to my divine... and there was my work...which manifested my aspirations truly despite the flaws and scars...

Salutations and greetings!

guess I've been shooting off, putting both my feet in my mouth as usual just like "me", completely out of my depth and league, and way away from where i should be - honest and silent contemplation..

Must acknowledge that all your inputs and insights have given me threads and perspectives to dwell on and contemplate..

apologies if I have offended any sensibilities...
or disturbed or intruded upon this space...

love and luck always...
adios

Hmm, a misconception; I too, do not seek love or lovers for the sake of filling voids. I have been a practicing celibate for many years by choice b/c of my religious beliefs.

I do not feel non-complete; other than the fact I miss the sharing of being: co-dependant. I find, I teeter too far towards independant now; to sway the other way. I am happy with myself in many regards. It seems to be the social-wounds which apply pressure.

IF I did not have a cheese-burger again, I would miss that too; but, it in no way implies; I would crumble nor fade away without it again. I feel the same of sex. Now, of men; I've never been without male influence's or male friendships; so I don't know what it is like not to have a male influence per se.

It is society which dictates the shoulds and should-nots of people. For me, I never was one to conform to social expectations(grin.)

North

Good Morning Sukanya

You have been very courageous in sharing and baring you heart. Why would you think you offended anyone? I am sure you words will be a source of inspiration and understanding for amny others in similar situations. And that is the power of sharing pain, we heal others first from the fear of feeling they are alone.

So thank You for enriching this blog with such truth and transparency.

North Ditto! You too bring the wisdom of your struggles for others to learn and ponder on.

May the light in your hearts and the silence of your soul bless you with great heights.

Sukanya just wrote to you on Sundars post "cyclones.

Harb you were saying something very interesting and insightful yesterday about how "men in this phase will be at their peak while women will either become like men - which is what i mean to be standing on their own or leaned on their own shoulders and this could well happen to some extent because from the second phase the women have to go to the third phase, the phase of men and i sense our anusheh to be like this to some extent - or in the absence of this they will miss a manly 'shoulder' to lean upon in this phase."

Whenever you can, would you elucidate on this for me please.

love
Anusheh

Anusheh,

this will again involve insights and explanations from my book which jasjit does not like here...so if you are further interested please write me on my email. thank you though:)

Harb ji I dont think thats what Jasjit meant at all, but I'll let her respond to that. I think it would be of benefit to all of us if you responded to my question here...but if you dont want to then I can of course write to you seperately.

love
anusheh

Dear Sukanya,

You have not offended any sensibilities. As I have been reading this blog I find that it is a space where people are coming to share their expeirences and learn from others.

The reason for my anger was that I could not relate to your experience at one level. But when I read your response I could relate to another level of your experience.

Hope to learn more from all your insights.

Love
Annie

sukanya, how it is so clear to me that if you had found any ONE to solace you to put a hand on your head, you would not have found the ONE WHICH INCLUDES ALL SUCH ONES.

oh forgot to say, no problem with ji or no ji or whatever....feel free though may be not as free as sunder when he was told that think myself as yourself lol.

harb

Absolutely, Harb.. through every instance, from circumstance to circumstance, I have been led to this discovery. am beginning to find a very personal, one to one, very simple, trusting connect to the One and to the manifestations of Oneness.. i've no words or learning to articulate it but its something instinctive, intuitive and heartwarming. That truly is my greatest most blessed relationship..and it is unveiling itself to me bit by little bit in amazing ways.
an anecdote that is part of my journey, when i understood its import, it brought change..

Sometime after her humiliation in the Kuru Sabha, Draupadi meets Krishna and asks him - Sakha, where were you when I needed you the most, at my most trying time, I kept calling you, trying to reach you, why did you take so long to respond? Krishna responds, "Sakhi, I answered your call at the very moment.. she says no you didn't, you took ages to come to my aid.. he says, i responded in that instant... as soon as you raised both your hands, and said hey Krishna! as soon as you let go of the vastra you were desperately trying to keep on yourself, as soon as both your arms were flung out towards me... I was there.."

It is such a beautiful way to be... to fling out our arms in surrender and embrace Oneness, with abandon, trusting that, letting go of all else, then the emptying happens and the recieving and filling begins.. then the dots connect..on the journey to becoming whole, becoming one..

that anecdote is loaded, sukanya...one cannot learn to swim by standing on the shores...one has to trust the waters and plunge in...

sukanya,

your knowledge overflows through your words...and the One, your guide, shines through your knowledge...

if guided by the same One you feel like writing to me you can open my site www.selfdesigneduniverse.com and post your message there. however, i feel that your knowledge and your experiences, pains, problems, solution, everything is so relevant to the subject of this blog that there is hardly anything except the pic which you cannot discuss here. so guided by that you are free to write or not write to me personally. no doubt i want to see your pic. there were times when we talked to each other being present in flesh and blood.now we talk with mere words. but we can at least make up for the flesh and blood part by seeing each other 's pics. perhaps it is only my need. because of my hearing problem i have become accustomed to seeing people's faces/lips to fully comprehend them...

Harb