thats a very beautiful post, aachi putting things into perspective....was reminded of an ancient indian shloka...aakaashat patitam toyam yatha gachati sagaram; sarva deva namaskaram sri kesavam prati gachati....just as water falling from the skies finally wends its way to the oceans; so also prostrations offered in myriad ways to myriad deities finally wends its way to the ocean....

Dear Aachi

Have been waiting for this:-) What an interesting and thought provoking post....well worth the wait. I wonder then if there are also 9 illusions that keep up trapped in our forever? Would love to hear yours and others thoughts on this. Jasjit could you give us the numerological significance of 9 please?

lots of love

Sundar,

thanks a lot for a lovely sloka to start the day with.:)

Dear Anusheh,

I just took the number nine arbitarily as it is the most full single digit number. but illusions as you say might be nine.

One significance I know of this number is that there are 9 doorways to all our bodies according to texts. ( 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 nostrils, 1 mouth, the urethra and the anus)

a wonderful depiction of this is seen in the Udipi Sri Krishna temple where the Lord is behind a door wih 9 holes in it. We have to peek in through the holes and see the deity.

The significance was explained by a pujari there that the door with its holes represents the human body and that the Lord is inside us and not anywhere else.

lots of love

Very intriguing post. The concept of number 9.. n its reference in so many different ways.

The one thing that comes to my mind -
The 9 planets in the solar system :)

Subtle and thought-provoking as always :-)

hmmm ... 9 .... well, honestly speaking, made me think about those 9 people in my life. And I got stuck with a question - there are many people who come into our lives, we love them with all our heart at that point and then grow out of it. It may not have lasted 'forever' but it was true when it was. So where does one place them? The relevance of this question is that if we do count those people in our lives, then I think the figure can turn out to be more than just 9. Or more importantly, then it would not be a constant figure for one and all, be it 9 or anything else. It would vary according to one's capacity to love. And the feeling of love can be 'forever'. It can be all inclusive!

just thinking aloud ...

May be I need to understand the significance of 9 a little better :-)

Dear Aachi

Thanks for that. Helped me become clearer. I suppose the nine doorways to the body are in a way the nine doorways of illusion, given that the body is the micro cosm.

I suppose in this way the nine illusions would be perception, sight, breath (life itself), sound, speech, creation, destruction, nourishment and expulsion. Ok just a wild guess:)

Loved the temple story. When you can look beyond the illusion, divinity truly does unveil itself.

Good morning Aachi! I always found it easier to learn the table for 9 because after 9*5= 45, the multiples just reverse their order. So you have 9*6=54; 9*7=63 (9*4=36) and so on.

The navarasas (nine emotional expressions) in dance; a cat has nine lives...

Can't wait for the next post!

Hi there 'aha' buddy

Unravelling the great mystery step by step aren't you.
Hmmm... nine people, 9metres, nine decades and nine souls. What an interesting premise.

Indeed maybe the souls circles 9 times in human form for completion and then if it doesn't happen moves to lower (maybe animal) realms and returns again for the cycle of nine. Interesting possibility. Because if the body is the vertiable ground of all mystical truths then that is what it implies. Like the none orifices you mention, symbolized in the temple this is what Gurbaani says..a line which mystified me always:

"Naun darvaazey, daswan dwar
bujh rey gyani sarb ka saar."
'There are nine doors to your body and the tenth (and only one) is the gateway (sahasryar chakra at the crown) and oh wise one figure this out as the essence of all creation.'

So the 9 orifices carry the nine senses (as Anusheh referred to the nine illusions) and even when one is blocked, incomplete the tenth 'gateway'does not open. The cycle then revolves around the nine desires and brings the karma of infinite (then it must be 9 times) return. The point I guess is to use 9 lifetimes (on the outside)to hit the 10th gateway and of final exit.

Navratri is the completion of the goddess power invocation in 9 days and strangely Ram, the ubiquitous persona for God is born on naumi (the ninth day of the lunar cycle).

If you add any integer(defined) to nine the sum of its total remains the same- 6+9=15 (1+5=6)
Nine is therefor the number of completion, fullness, end of a cycle and that is why it precedes the zero i.e after wholeness comes the void/nothingness all over again.

Just going by this logic I think you have hit on a powerful mystical truth Aachi in stating 9 souls. Within one realm of being (say human) nine rebirths must be the norm to complete the cycle and after that if the soul does not enter the void then its realm changes. Just musing aloud!

Adding to significance of Nine....

As per Bhagvad Gita, Nine Incarnations of Vishnu which have already taken place:

the fish incarnation (matsyavatara), the tortoise incarnation (kurmavatara), the boar incarnation (varahavatara), the man lion incarnation (narasimhavatara), the dwarf incarnation (vamanavatara), the incarnation of Parasurarama (parasuramavatara), the incarnation of Rama (ramavatara), the incarnation of Balarama (balaramavatara), and the incarnation of Sri Krishna (krishnavatara).

"If you add any integer(defined) to nine the sum of its total remains the same- 6+9=15 (1+5=6)
Nine is therefor the number of completion, fullness, end of a cycle and that is why it precedes the zero i.e after wholeness comes the void/nothingness all over again."

Wow! Dont think I have ever found Mathematics so interesting :-)

Thanks for explaining the significance of 9 as representing Completion.

hello Nyneishia,

it is also an astrological number like the nine planets of astronomy, there are 9 grahas (of astrology). It includes the sun and the moon and deletes neptune and pluto.

Dear Shubhosree,

you are right that the capacity to love varies from individual to individual. the number is given to make the subject interesting. as u are starting to like maths, a precept is if 'n' is a very big number, then n=n-1 !!! :)

similarly if it is 9 or for that matter 90, it hardly matters when you bring forever into the picture.

Only the finiteness has been underlined.

Dear Anusheh,

I think you have hit the mark right, just like jasjit said.

hey buddy Jasjit,

your knowledge and mastery over a variety of subjects is just fantastic. A friend of mine who intermittently visits this blog told me that he was amazed by the depth of your knowhow in various topics. :)

Dear Chaitali,

thank you so much. its true about the nava rasas, perhaps they also allude to the nine illusions of man.

will post the third part very soon.

hello rudra,

nice site you have. thanks for the input.

Aachi thanks for the compliments but you have to be the trigger that sets it all off :-). Here's some more stuff that your post just set off.

If we look at the numeral 9 then there is a zero (void) attached on the right (critical for it is the Yang or doer side) is the one. It must be the number which then signifies the lifetime of a Master. Having achieved the state of void they carry the one(Purusha)karam to act the Mastery (of completion) out. Hence whether Osho, Deepak, Ramana Maharishi, HH Dalai Lama,Sri Ravishankar, Ma Amritanandamayi etc etc their entire life work is to place the mystical/transcendent self centre stage in people's lives. What is fascinating is that the earlier 8 births (clusters of consciousness) define the specific kind of form their being/teaching/target group/form of articulation takes. Marvellously creating/playing in the myriad leela of diversity their mystical songs. Having done with the play, the one disappears and they slip into the zero or void.

Which if looked at through the mathematical marvel of nine says the same. The Master (whole)added to the being (defined integer) brings ostensibly an increased value(expansion) 6+9=15 but in the final analysis when the expansion is examined the sum total of the being is unchanged i.e leads him/her to where they essentially already were, complete! The difference was just the illusion of their self-perception. The Master plays the game of taking them to what they percieve is the 'larger value' only to bring them back to the reality of knowing that shorn of the illusion they were always pure consciousness.

What fun this is Buddy!

Fascinating! Fascinating! Fascinating!

Shubhz I share your sentiment. Amazing stuff Jasjit...awesome and so exciting.

Don't know if its going too far with this FOREVER debate over number 9 but is there some link between whats being said here and the 9 months of the baby in the womb?!

Hello Aachi & All the fellow 'bus' travellers,

Overwhelmed, yet again. Hit by the the eternity of knowledge & possiblities in this post contributed by all.

Dear Jasjit:
As always, driving everyone further with your versatilty while making it fun & easy.
You can so seamlessly connect & round up so much knowledge.

Dear Anusheh:
A deep connection you made of the 9 doorways with those Illusions there.

Dear Shubhosree:
As usual - Keen & Inquisitive - preserving the qualities of the child in you.

Dear Rudra:
Interesting to know about the nine Incarnations.

Dear Aachi:
Nice to see the continuum you are creating towards the Edge of Forever.
Just feel like extending your expression: "In the horizontal 8 with its billions of channels, our journey is but in 9 national highways."
Looking at how the Forever of 8 has turned to an ending signified by 9, I just slipped into thinking that they are all finally reducing or ending into the Absolute - '0'. The Perfectly rounded, true Knowledge (as connected by Jasjit too). Indeed we ascend on this path of forever out from the looping (8), to the ending (9) finally to reach the absolute. I can now understand something I read somewhere else - In order to truly worship the Lord either become complete (with all the greatness) like the number 9, or empty (devoid of ego, or in a state of total surrender) like the 0.

Maths is usually capable of Quantifying finiteness but in this piece it takes a sharp turn into helping us connect the finiteness & infiniteness of 9.

Strange how 9 also indicates the end, finality & wholeness on one hand and regeneration, new birth on the other (9 represents Lord Brahma - the creator of universe). And Annie, I guess this aptly connects to the womb, source of the universe.

Some more significances of 9 that I found elsewhere:
- The number of yrs in all 4 Yugas are multiples of 9 - Satyug (1,72,800 yrs), Treta Yug (12,96,000 yrs), DwaparYug (8,64,000 yrs) & Kaliyug (4,32,000 yrs)
- The word 'Garba' (The dance performed during Navratri) stems from 'Garbha' and symbolises the 'Dance of Creation'

Love you so. All :)

dear shubhosree, anusheh,

let me add a prefix to your comments on jasjit's post...."Absolutley fascinating!" :)

Dear Annie, I think Surya Prakash has given a wonderful example to the meaning to your question of nine months.

and Surya Prakash,

what can I say....wonderful share. thank you.

Hi All.
Wonderland of a debate. So here's my question , since nine is a factor of 3 and squared it comes to 9- or completion then what is the role of 3 in the order ?

dear Aachi,
a excellent post.....
i hav always heard of a theory called six degrees of seperation..where any one in the world can be connected to u by knowing 5 more people..
as of people in the world whom u can love for an entire life time...u can just count them in ur own fingers.....
reading thru Jasjit comments on this topic she wrote that the human form may be superior to the other animal forms ...
i just used to believe in the law tht all living things are equal...

A big Hello to everyone!! :-)

Dear Aachi,

Thanks for the clarification about emphasising the finiteness.

Dear Surya Prakash,

Interesting observations about the Yuga and Garbha.

And thanks for the compliment! The child has always been integral to me.

Good morning everyone!

I must say guys and gals all this is turning out to be a wonderful, fascinating and mind boggling and at the same time solving so many mysteries. Its also showing us the reasons behind so many things taht we otherwise take for granted, like the numbers 0 and 9. And now I'm sure Venkat's question about 3 is yet again going to bring out something even more fascinating!!!!

Dear Aaachi

Waiting for your next piece ( NUMBER 10?)

Cheers
Buas

Good Morning everyone,

Dear Venkat,
I also had the same Question when I first read your comment. And just recalled that 3 symbolizes Trilogy, Trinity. In numerology it symbolizes optimism, growth. Could this all be connected? Does this also have a connection with the 3 dimensions our lives that are there with us each moment 'eternally' - past, present & future?
Could this be that 3 being an integral step (factor) towards the wholeness / completeness (9) has something to do with reaching a significant point?

Jasjit, Aachi, Shubhosree, Anusheh, Chaitali and all else ... any thoughts

Aachi: Thanks for your appreciation :)

And Shubhosree: You're welcome :)

On another note, what I wrote in my last comment about linking the path of 8 to 9 and then to 0 (the Knowledge of the Absolute). I also came to think that it could also mean that this search of forever could finally end in the self (within).
Linking all the energy, universes, and forever to the core of the humanity - within ourselves.

Please pardon me all if I am beginning to wonder too much. Just had let it flow out.

Thanks all :)

Hi Surya Prakash,

The number 3 always brings a Triangle to my mind (dont know why). So when you mentioned the trinity, trilogy, the triangle flashed before my eyes again. And specially in the case of the Past, Present and Future - I feel that they are the 3 sides of the triangle, all connected to each other and include everything within them.

Just thinking aloud ...

Good Morning All

What a vibrant debate!

Annie
great point about nine months.

Rudra
fascinating connections in the nine incarnations, perhaps I will attempt to see how that translates into all our selves.

Surya Prakash
Thanks for the information on Yugas. True they are all multiples of 9. And the bit on Garba- always thought that the word had to do with the womb but as you explain it, coming as it does after Navratri, makes absolute sense. Also the fact that it is danced in a circle, alternates between man/woman (Yin/Yang) the sticks with which you play are the connectivity integers with which your strike all creation around you alternating, circling and forever completing the round of unified connectivity and purpose. IS that not facsinating? Thanks Surya Praksh for such a powerful insight.

And absolutely, the search forever does end when you realize you are the void, the centre of all that is creation, infinitely the source and the manifestation of everything that you know as the Universe and the Beyond. That must be the edge of the Universe so to speak, for then there is no concept of either infinity or its edge left.

Bud Aachi
Look at the brilliant debate your pieces generate on this blog. you are single-handedly triggering the the vision of connectivity. Hugs to you my friend for being you.

Preethi

All living things are equal and yet are not. Not in a derogatory sense but more reflective of diversity. For instance neither are humans equal within themselves, we are all different. The animal realm is 'lower' in the sense of lacking the range of choices that man has. And choice affects creativity and field of play. Unarguably man then reigns supreme in the scheme of things since his choices are the greatest.

That's so simply put Shubhosree :)
And now I add another thought to it - I have often seen some figures where a Human Body is sitting and it is inside a triangle and it is glowing from inside. I'm sorry for being so vague ... do not have much knowledge I know.

Thanks Shubhsree for adding that to the thought process.

Eager to see how Jasjit would connect all this :)

Aachi (meaning an Arch):
Buddy, count me with Jasjit about how you've triggered this all.

Jasjit: You've explained the Dance so vibrantly.
Yes! Fascinating indeed.

Was thinking - How do you manage all that knowledge in you? The answer probably is: It is the "self" that we need to focus on. You have probably done that or close to it.

Hi Dear Chaitali: Seems like you're right about triggering off with the number 3 :).

Surya Prakash & Venkat

Like you said 8 is transformation, which leads to the nine which is completion and finally the zero which is the return to nothingness.

Three then is rightly the foundation. Trimurti, Trinity and as Shubz rightly said the triad concept of the base and the peak. Three is mind, body and spirt when they come together as the created self then raised to their own power (3 squared) leads to 9 or completion. Squaring must mean that each aspect of the three is rasied to its full power- the body-perfected with its 'purified' subtle circuits (cleansed of karmic residue) the mind rasied to consciousness and able to then function as autonomous mind and the soul raised to its essential/infinite potential (like a Master's bringing wisdom/joy/play to the world) equals completion. The squaring must mean that if either one of the 3 have not completed the perfection/squaring, the nine cannot happen.

Just to think aloud then 3 must be the the left co-ordinate of the base of the traingle. Ascension to the peak must be a six where karmically man blooms to a worldly height (say a Bill Gates). He she then turn away to seek a deeper truth (triggered by the emptiness/solitariness of the apex/height of six) and returns back to the right co-ordinate of the triangle's base- the nine. The cycle of nine is complete. Is it not interesting that the apex is a point which can be reached but as the symmetry of points indicate cannot be sustained. So change is inevitable. Which explains why most men when they reach the height of power /fame/money invariably a restlessness occurs and they begin to move away from that life.

Now let's see if we can try this with Rudra's nine incarnations. The left co-ordinate at the base has (fish/tortoise/boar) animal sensibilites absorbed and integrated into human form. The rise come from Narsiman and Vamanavatara( half man/lion and dwarfed man) to peak at the apex as Parasurama-warrior Yang-full blown in his material world as conqueror of all he/she desires. The Rama (Yin perfection) and Balarama (balanced, perfected Yin/Yang) of non-duality then move man to the final point of his Krishna self-undisputed Self of Mastery/ Emperor of the Play and the Universe.

Possible connection no?

Surya Prakash

Just saw your comment after I posted. the figure meditating within the triangle must then reflect the way I have suggested the triangle ruling us through the 3 and the nine. It is all so truly fascinating, being able to track all this order, over and over again.

By the way the traingle is the central geometric configuration of a Yantra- a vedic graphic blue print of the microcosm, emodying the principles of the macrocosm. Goddess Yantras like the Sri Yantra then etc are a complex configuration of triangles carrying great powers like holograms to connect to and invoke.

Aha!

Surya Prakash

To answer your question on how I 'contain this knowledge within me'. Truthfully speaking I am not 'aware' anymore of what I contain. I am only aware of what I have emptied out and no longer feel attached to, moved by or stuck in. I guess I am just aware now of the state of 'being'. And strangely when a question/query/thought crosses the empty state of my mind quite spontaneously and almost 'unbeknownest to me' an understanding/insight begins to flow. Frankly its like I am not the source and yet something within me is. And that is why taking credit for this wisdom seems 'discomfitting' for I do not believe it is born from 'my' mind.
Indeed this is what is oft called the 'Self'. For now that which I know as my mind is usually in a state of empty, thoughtless 'mindlessness' often comic to me in its near 'simplicity' which I often refer to as my 'premature senility'. :-)

Hey Jasjit!!

Suddenly everything seems to have calmed down in this place since morning (or should I say within me). Am at piece with the connections & explaination by you Jasjit. Thank you for sharing all of that and being so humble. :)
Mind, Body & Spirit and then the ascension from 3 to 6 and finally to 9. Thanks for Clearing that.

Another 'Ahaa!!' from me too Shubhz and Thankyou for introducing the tri-angle. Power of simplicity.

Thank you ALL !! :)

And Jasjit, about awareness of the source of your knowledge, all i can say is that i will remember these words.
:)

Hello everybody

Surya Prakash (can we have a shorter nick name:) those were really interesting insights and questions that you put forth.

Thank you everyone for a really enlightening discussion and Aachi of course for initiating it.This has really been enjoyable and great learning.

love

Surya Prakash

Your wisdom, humility, and sincerity are indeed rare and touching. You remind of the still waters of a lake which carry deep profundities within and yet are able to mirror the truths around them

Here's a Zen saying I know you will enjoy

"Do not sit with a mind fixed on emptiness.
If you do, you will fall into a neutral kind of emptiness.
Emptiness includes the sun, moon, stars and planets,
The great earth, mountains and rivers,
All trees and grasses,
Bad people and good people,
Bad things and good things,
Heaven and hell;
They are all in the midst of emptiness.

- Hui-neng (638-713)

love

No Thanks required :)

Hi everyone,

Have been witnessing the amazing interactions going on here all day (amidst a mindless day in office..and still there are no signs of any respite).

Simply fascinating...Great Going !!

A proud traveller of the Bus.

Enjoy

Hi All
Kudos &Bravo for the entire thread. The stuff here is truly mind blowing. I have to admit there is stuff I don't understand & yet intuitively It makes so much sense. Draws you to want to know more. I wonder if someone can suggest some beginners readings.

Jasjit all I can say to you is wow! O.K so the Zen saying went over my head but there is sometthing magical about it all which just leaves a lingering feeling.

I was thinking if only school education used this unified approach everyone would really get a head start. At least in India where its so integral to our culture. And kids would enjoy math so much more. Its exciting to think this century is bringing science & spirituality to such an exciting convergence.
Thanks all especially Aachi for this stimulating piece.

Dear Anusheh,

Used to copy-paste myself :). Will be using "Surya" from now on. Good to know straight fwd ppl :).

Dearest Jasjit,
I'm truly honoured to be here dear friend. Will cherish your kind words for life.
You must know that a lot of credit goes to you in bringing everyone to this journey, making them feel so enriched at each step; and of course, showing your patience in getting this blog up & running.

Each of the authors & commentors has been a great companion too - so open, sharing, loving.

About the Zen saying:
There's nothing to say about it; Just to remember. :)

Hi Prasun was wondering where you were today:) Good to see you here.

Thanks Surya;)loved your comment on the zen saying!

Good Morning Venkat

I so agree with your suggestion on changing what we 'teach' children. Their pure, receptive minds would take the unified wisdom so much further in bringing the world to balance and understanding . And imagine how it would diminsh sectarianism, fanaticism, religious 'separation' and wars. Perhaps Ifsha should think about setting up such a school now :-)

You can begin by reading books on Vedant if you wish to begin with the source. Alternatively if you visit an OSho store (there is one in Delhi in Ansal Plaza called Osho World) there are many books on the main Upanishads that Osho has brillinatly explained. his interpretaions make the wisdom so much more absorbable and well-rounded.
If science and spirituality is where you wish to begin try these books by Deepak Chopra- Quantum Healing, Ageless Body Timeless Mind, Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, How to Know God, and his 'best' work in my eyes 'The Book of Secrets'. The Ifsha website (www.ifsha.org) also has a recommended books scetion under many different heads- maybe you can go through them.

I second that Venkat and Jasjit! I think its a brilliant idea to gradually introduce kids to the spiritual aspect especially in a country like India where we are so rich with its beauty. Great way to broaden their horizons!

Thanks Surya for the shorter form of your name :)

Cheers!

Hi everyone,

I was very happy to see the level of debate and shares that are going on in the thread. I am sorry for not having taken part earlier because I was travelling. I am right now in Kolkata and will be leaving soon. I took time and dashed to the net centre because I was missing the blog these few days.

I promise to go through all the comments and post my reply soon , perhaps in the night.

Dear Jasjit, the privilege of being a friend is entirely mine. :)

a big hi to anusheh, shubhosree, chaitali, sundar, surya prakash, buas, prasun, venkat and preethi

love

Hiiiii Aachi

we've been missing you

love
anusheh

Hi to you too Aachi! Glad to have you back :)

Hey Aachi,

Sorry came a little late on this piece. As if the piece wasnt mind-boggling enough but reading the comments just blew my mind completely out of this world .... its probably floating somewhere in the empty spaces of 0, beyond all edges!! :)

Awesome connections and interpretations Jasjit.